Today, Emma talks with Michael Brenes, the director of the Brady Johnson Program on Grand Strategy and a lecturer in history at Yale University. Emma and Mike discuss what internationalism might look like after this administration, how cooperation rather than competition might lead the U.S. to greater success vis-a-vis China, and why American primacy might be a fool’s errand going forward.

Emma and Mike’s discussion is part of the New Visions for Grand Strategy Project, a collection of essays, videos, and podcasts in which out-of-the box thinkers discuss the future of U.S. foreign policy.

We apologize for the poor audio qualities in parts of this episode due to unexpected technical difficulties.

Show Links:

• Emma Ashford, First Among Equals: U.S. Foreign Policy for a Multipolar World (Yale University Press, 2025)
• Michael Brenes and Van Jackson, The Rivalry Peril: How Great-Power Competition Threatens Peace and Weakens Democracy (Yale University Press, 2025)
• Michael Brenes, “After the Age of Trump: Rejecting Competition“ in New Visions for Grand Strategy, edited by Emma Ashford and Nevada Joan Lee,The Stimson Center. Washington, D.C., USA